Talk:Healing and Wound (Guide)

Larsa|@LaraWyn — Today at 10:08 AM
What is the upper limit of healing
I'm looking to write up a guide that gives our players an idea of what kind of wounds can be fixed in healing and what can not. So I'm going to pose some questions, and would like to know if they can be healed with either medical or magical healing.

Death (Heart Stopped likely due to blood loss)
Death (Head Removed)
Limb cut off
Arrow Puncture that would require "surgery"
Arrow Puncture of the "push it thru variety"
Bone Break Severe (crushed our broken skin)
Bone Break normal (something that can be straightened with hands)
Deep Cut (to the bone)
Abdominal cut (spill guts)
others if there is lore examples. (edited)

Rokthor||@sinath41 — Today at 10:25 AM
All answers are just my personal opinion:

Death(heart stopped)-Medical no. Magical yes but requiring great skill, power and should not be a common occurrence. 
Death(Head removed)- Medical no. Magical no 
Limb cut off- Medical no. Magical maybe but yet another incredible skill and power as well as rare and place at right time. Probably a no for us in most situations.
Arrow puncture surgery- Medical yes. Magical yes
Arrow puncture push through- Medical yes. Magical yes.
Bone break any type- Medical yes with great skill and time. Magical yes.
Deep cut- Medical yes with great skill, time, care. Magical yes 
Abdominal cut- Medical iffy if guys are spilling. Very time and place dependent. Magical yes but another time, place, skull factors to be considered.

Larsa|@LaraWyn — Today at 10:35 AM
Okay some soft challenge questions to make sure we are on the same page:

Arrow puncture surgery- Medical yes. Magical yes
We have medical surgery to this level? 

Bone break any type- Medical yes with great skill and time. Magical yes
Why does any bone break require more medical skill then an arrow puncture requiring surgery.

Magical yes but requiring great skill, power and should not be a common occurrence. 
For any wound that has this as an answer, does doubling/tripling the number of magical healers sharing power lower the difficulty?

Rokthor||@sinath41 — Today at 10:42 AM
I think the more healers you got working on anything the better for sure. Much faster reaction and greater chance of success. I do think Tamriel has the ability for surgery at these levels. Ignore my greater skill comment. Really was just wanting to mention time as you can't just walk around on a broken bone after it's been set

Larsa|@LaraWyn — Today at 10:54 AM
Okay, so that explains the time element, great, I can write that up.

My last questions was specifically about "sharing power" between two healers. I suppose that is a question I should ask, tho I have assumed its true based on all the in world quests.  holds up hands I know ... 

But confirm that you can share power with a group of magical casters.

@Larsa|@LaraWyn
What is the upper limit of healing I'm looking to write up a guide that gives our players an idea of what kind of wounds can be fixed in healing and what can not. So I'm going to pose some questions, and would like to know if they can be healed with either medical or magical healing.  Death (Heart Stopped likely due to blood loss) Death (Head Removed) Limb cut off Arrow Puncture that would require "surgery" Arrow Puncture of the "push it thru variety" Bone Break Severe (crushed our broken skin) Bone Break normal (something that can be straightened with hands) Deep Cut (to the bone) Abdominal cut (spill guts) others if there is lore examples. (edited)

Agnor | @Alekzaroiv — Today at 12:26 PM
Ok so Im going to protest it here. Medicine in Tamriel isn't as advanced as our nowadays medicine. In fact, the flavor text from treasures - medical supplies reassures me of it. There is a lot of oilments, creams and so on, but not so much when it comes to surgery tools. 

Among the tools, there is for instance:
Glass Bone Saw - Because sometimes amputation is the only option.

This is the flavor text, word by word. So I'm going to say there are injuries you cant heal with medicine or magic in Tamriel, useless we are talking of an expert medic with expert restoration magic on top of it.

There is even an item like this:
Joint Hammer - rubber mallet used to crack arthritic joints. Largely considered barbaric and ineffective, it persists as a layman's remedy.

So I'm going to insist on the point that only someone on legendary level of proficiency of both healing skills will be able to avert death from blood loss. Healing magic is usually taught by temples or the mages guild and knowing how to cast effective restoration magic need a degree of medical knowledge in my opinion. 

Anyway, after my rant, here is my opinion on the injuries:

Death (Heart stopped due blood loss) - likely no, useless done by an expert in both fields. 
Death by decapitation - no.
Limb cut off - goodbye limb, I never saw a spell that regenerate lost limbs in Elder scrolls. (edited)

@Larsa|@LaraWyn
Okay, so that explains the time element, great, I can write that up.  My last questions was specifically about "sharing power" between two healers. I suppose that is a question I should ask, tho I have assumed its true based on all the in world quests.  holds up hands I know ...   But confirm that you can share power with a group of magical casters.

phlegmathicc | ysode — Today at 12:28 PM
this, yee

Agnor | @Alekzaroiv — Today at 12:29 PM
Arrow puncture - Im going to be picky here and ask where the arrow landed. Because if it only damaged muscle tissue, it can be summed up as "push thru variety". If it needs surgery, as in, blood vessels were damaged and there is internal haemorrhage, or an organ was damaged, it depends on where it landed. Internal haemorrhage could be treated by a very good medic, but damage on the organs would require immediate attention and the patient could end dying anyway - for instance, if it hits a vital organ like the lungs.
Bone Break - normal could have the healing process speed up by magic, but otherwise requires a long time to heal. Severe bone break would require long time to heal and a huge amount of mana to restore the damaged tissue, so Im going with it would need time too.
Deep cut to the bone - both. I dont think tamriel has the technology to avoid the infections that would come from the process using their current medical knowledge alone.
Adbominal cut, spills guts. - RIP. (edited)

phlegmathicc | ysode — Today at 12:30 PM
this is slightly off topic but a good rule of thumb

so usually  it's considered that shit like debris, an arrow sticking out of your chest, is going to need direct physical medical care. Then magic itself is a way to expedite healing immensely

Malraz the Orc (@Zulavi) — Today at 12:44 PM
From what lore I've read and stuff I've seen in-game -- there's still going to be a lot of recovery time and actual skill involved either way, whether the healing is magical or medical in nature. However, let's not forget that Restoration magic is still quite effective at what it can treat, and also, alchemy actually works.

Rokthor||@sinath41 — Today at 12:47 PM
I was scouring the webs to see what discussions had come up about this before and what others thought and it looks like the majority of opinions sort of fall into, "Magic exists so even a so called doctor or surgeon type is supplementing care with magic." Magic be crazy in Elder Scrolls also, the upper limits never really defined. I'm pretty on board with what Agnor said honestly after reading some things. Lose your head, heart stop, guts spilling, you dead. You're not growing an arm back either unless we're talking some crazy ass flesh sculpting bad juju necro stuff maybe. Probably not feasible though. The other stuff is still pretty life threatening or permanently handicapping/disfiguring as well if there's no healer about. Restoration and alchemy like Malraz said is pretty darn good though. Both still are set deeply in the magic field though.

Malraz the Orc (@Zulavi) — Today at 12:49 PM
Also keep in mind that if Restoration magic wasn't effective in ways that medicine wasn't,
A) the Society of the Steadfast, Harmonious Masters and others would probably be out of jobs
B) guards in Skyrim would have a problem with Restoration the same way as with other magic
[12:49 PM]
Also it just occurred to me that maybe this is why Syrabane was deified by the Altmer -- he had that rare level of skill with healing magic that could cure the Thrassian Plague

Rokthor||@sinath41 — Today at 12:49 PM
Ah good point

Agnor | @Alekzaroiv — Today at 12:50 PM
I honestly consider restoration magic a fasten up the natural healing process. Grave injuries require extra care, or knowledge, or both to be properly healed.

Rokthor||@sinath41 — Today at 12:52 PM
Another good point. Otherwise all the restoration type healing spells would just fix the thing they were aimed at. Yet you have major diseases and other illnesses that cannot be magicked away sometimes

Larsa|@LaraWyn — Today at 12:52 PM
Are there examples of healing magic being amplified at special locations?

phlegmathicc | ysode — Today at 12:53 PM
off the top of my head, I don't think so. But I don't see why thats not something we could do as flair if we wanted to (edited)

Agnor | @Alekzaroiv — Today at 12:55 PM
I dont recall anywhere in Tamriel that augments healing magic in particular, but if we think of magic in general, ayleid stuff is known to affect magic. (edited)

phlegmathicc | ysode — Today at 12:56 PM
yeah, like technically no, but the concept could be used without scaring off roleplayers (edited)

Rokthor||@sinath41 — Today at 12:56 PM
I definitely agree that lore supports us homebrewing something like that if we wish. Plenty of sacred locations and the like around. Who's to say we don't have such a place that can amplify our healers potency? Or at least that we think does! 

Larsa|@LaraWyn — Today at 12:57 PM
I hope so, cuz I built one, cuz six weeks down time to heal a broken bone isn't going to work for most rpers 

phlegmathicc | ysode — Today at 12:57 PM
tbh like two weeks is more than enough to feel like forever to a rper (edited)
[12:57 PM]
even a week

Rokthor||@sinath41 — Today at 12:58 PM
As long as it doesn't lean into the extreme lol. Oh look all of our fallen are back to life and healthy again because we took them to the Nord Semetary.
[12:59 PM]

Larsa|@LaraWyn — Today at 12:59 PM
Heh, yeah I'm not that type of RPer, so I won't be likely to write that into lore.

Rokthor||@sinath41 — Today at 1:00 PM
What a terrible fate anyway for a nord. Sitting up there in Sovngarde about to take that first sip of mead that flows like rivers and some asshole finds a way to bring you back into the world of the living. 
<nowiki>
Larsa|@LaraWyn — Today at 1:00 PM
Riight?! I'd sell them to the vampires ....
[1:01 PM]
Okay, I'll leave this up for another day or so, and then I'll work on crafting a guideline for review.

Rokthor||@sinath41 — Today at 1:03 PM
Can't believe I forgot about this. Rok already does this when injured. He goes back east and bathes in the waters that are coming down from the throat of the world. He thinks they have magic, Kyne's blessed healing properties. They probably don't for him but he thinks they do and that's all that matters.

Agnor | @Alekzaroiv — Today at 1:09 PM
Hey, to wash up the wounds and dont have it get infected can be pretty magical in a world where people dont know bacteria exist =p

Rokthor||@sinath41 — Today at 1:11 PM
Lol true

Agnor | @Alekzaroiv — Today at 1:11 PM
my favourite tidbit of historical medicine is how survival skyrocked after people learned to wash their hands before helping someone give birth (edited)

Rokthor||@sinath41 — Today at 1:11 PM
Lol that is a good one

@Lash_gra-Bar — 11/23/2022 6:01 PM
For healing, its important to notice https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cloudrest has a "Faculty of Chirugeons" (which is just an older word for Surgeon).

They were first mentioned in reference to https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Flesh_Sculpture, by Galathil in TES5, who also studied with the Hollow-Faced Men of Nohotoghra.  Where is that? Hammerfell. Holy Satakal worshipers.

Why does this matter? Because it's the healing spec.... for necromancy. https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Flesh_Sculptor A lot of folks have a knee-jerk rejection, but magic is just magic, it can be ethical or abused.  Turns out that ethical necros.... are surgeons & priests (all those powers to banish the angry dead, etc).

You might REALLY like https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Contraband/Medical_Supplies - because medical tools exist (and many are a bit magical, but it's not just for wizards - even IRL, doctors use a bunch of tools but most cant construct build one from scratch, yanno? surgeons don't blacksmith their own scalpels).  Magical yet accessible items even include prosthetics that work like fingers - this is not a grim dark world of permanent ruination.

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Benevolent_Necromancy,_it_Exists is another goodie.

Nords actually have it easier than many.  Despite being a testing god, https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Hjurring in Windhelm is a priest - and Nords have Draugr in their cultural tradition.  Its stands to reason their priests be knowledgeable on healing, embalming, etc. Even Brother Verulus in TES5 in the Hall of the Dead specifically had Restoration  in primary skills.
Online:Contraband/Medical Supplies
@Lash_gra-Bar — 11/23/2022 6:09 PM
as for RP
well faster magical healing exists

But if you need to slow healing, you could focus on the stolen item list - it's possible to heal someone but you're short on supplies & need to acquire them.

Education isnt uniform either. Maybe your local priest hasn't learned spells.  Or they were more focused warding vs the angry dead, not playing doctor.

I agree with Rokthor, I cant recall limb reattachment (tho would be a cool idea for a necro).  Death is death tho.  No talking heads unless you're Caldwell, lol.
Larsa|@LaraWyn — 11/23/2022 6:17 PM
Those were really useful lash! Thank you.
Ysara (@BoneDecipherer) {Bones} — 11/24/2022 2:44 AM
Oh, this was a cool discussion to read! (Especially as an OOC necro healer). And I thought I'd put it out there, I'm a bioanthropologist who specialises in pathology and physical trauma of past populations. If anyone has questions regarding anatomy, surgery, pathology or lived experience after/with trauma/disease don't hesitate to reach out (though be prepared for all the gruesome details). 
Hjoldhrim Bear-Heart — 11/24/2022 2:25 PM
Death (Heart Stopped)
Medical Yes, if its a temporary thing, so revival is doable but difficult consider lack of technology.
Medical No, In the case of blood loss.
Magical Yes, for temporary heart stop.
Magical Yes, if they've been dead for like, days or hours. It would require tremendous power, balance, and most likely some form of sacrifice to use.

Death (Head Removed)
Medical No, duh.
Magical Yes, but would be very tricky to get to work, most likely necromancy of varying sorts to fuse the body or just ressurect the head alone.

Limb cut off
Medical No
Magical Yes, but very time consuming, weeks and even months of work. Very painful I'd imagine.

Arrow Puncture that would require "surgery"
Medical Yes
Magical Yes

Arrow Puncture of the "push it thru variety"
Medical Yes
Magical Yes
Bone Break Severe (crushed our broken skin)
Medical Yes
Magical Yes

Bone Break normal (something that can be straightened with hands)
Medical Yes
Magical Yes

Deep Cut (to the bone)
Medical Yes
Magical Yes

Abdominal cut (spill guts)
Medical Yes, but would require very skilled healer to do
Magical, Same 
this is just my take on it
By no means rules
I'd also like to add that healing via magic should definitely be more than a sprinkle of gold light
When I do healing rp, its treated with both magic and mundane treatments
Malraz the Orc (@Zulavi) — 11/24/2022 2:31 PM
Historically in other games, I've done both medical and magical healing with something a lot more in-depth, even to the point where I'm looking up actual medical procedures as I go so I can get it right. Sometimes I get people that would prefer the "sprinkle of golden light" thing and don't respect things like recovery times, but most of the time it works. 

Saying that, those games have had technology and sci-fi stuff in them as well that's leagues ahead of what a fantasy setting would offer.
Hjoldhrim Bear-Heart — 11/24/2022 2:32 PM
Respecc
Malraz the Orc (@Zulavi) — 11/24/2022 2:33 PM
Hrim, you used to be in a guild in SWTOR where I did that 😛
Hjoldhrim Bear-Heart — 11/24/2022 2:34 PM
The healing process I use is: 
Stop bleeding mundane/magical (use of capstone cap which has natural clotting properties.
Clean wound (mundane)
Disinfect wound (mundane)
-Optionally close wound gap (magical)
Stitch wound (mundane)
Apply bandage smeared with a healing ointment/spell (mundane/magical)
Give drugs (mundane at any stage)